George Gammon: A very high probability that real US Home Prices fall by 50% over the next few years
George Gammon, an American real estate investor and popular YouTuber, believes that the housing crash in the US is well underway and about to get much,…
George Gammon, an American real estate investor and popular YouTuber, believes that the housing crash in the US is well underway and about to get much, much worse.
Before we visit George’s arguments, let’s take a look at what has been happening in some of the US residential markets.
Source: Bankrate.com
So, that graph makes for pretty dire reading. What makes the situation even worse, is that these losses are in nominal terms.
As inflation continues to rage in the US, real losses are actually far steeper and threatening to continue to erode value over a much longer term.
Plagued by rock-bottom interest rates, displaced national and global supply chains, a prolonged halt in global economic activity during the previous two years, and a deadly combination of unprecedented monetary and fiscal stimulus, I do not expect inflationary forces to be reined in any time soon.
In the latest figures, US inflation is staying stubbornly above 8%, despite the Fed tightening monetary policy at 3 times the standard rate.
The lag between tightening and its full effects flowing through the economy only adds to the argument that inflation is not easing meaningfully in the immediate future. You can read more about policy lags in my earlier article.
Moreover, if the central bank were to pivot, the real loss in purchasing power would become much more acute.
Economic drivers pushing real estate to the edge
Gammon believes that there are multiple key factors which are contributing to the current slowdown and impending doom in the national housing market.
Firstly, the number of retirees in the US has increased substantially since the onset of the pandemic. A fact sheet issued by Social Security this year, notes that there were 48 million retirees on benefits in June 2022, and this is expected to rise to 76 million by 2035.
For the older demographic, the bulk of their financial security is in a combination of home equity and their 401(k). However, this year, portfolios are being battered left and right, with equities and bonds bleeding profusely.
For instance, at the time of writing, the S&P 500 is down 19.6% YTD. The US 10-year note which was yielding a low of 1.341% in its 52-week range is trading at 4.027% today, with bond prices taking a beating.
For a retiree, this is an extremely worrying realization, as a lifetime of working towards financial independence is violently rocked in just a few short months.
With the majority of targeted fiscal stimulus and other supportive policies such as mortgage forbearance under the pandemic-era CARES Act having all but dried up, home owner-retirees are finding themselves increasingly squeezed, with a bleak future ahead.
As a result, a big chunk of retirees who were looking forward to enjoying the evening of their lives, are being forced into a fight for survival.
Worse, as in the graph above, house prices are being decimated all over the country, with top markets such as San Jose conceding nearly 10% of their value in just the last 90 days.
Unfortunately, with home equity often being the last source of refuge for the older demographic, and beginning to slip from their fingers, the natural response would be to panic sell.
We can expect that evaporating 401(k)s and fears of ever-higher inflation, will force a lot of these homes back onto the market. Other than the extra supply, forced selling will drag prices that have already crumbled this year even lower.
Mortgage rates crush the once unthinkable 7% mark
But the trouble for the housing market is just beginning, with mortgage rates skyrocketing above 7%, and 30-year rates at 7.22% earlier this week. This is a remarkable (and terrifying) increase since rates were hovering around 3% only earlier this year.
Among struggling home owners and mortgage holders, this would only add to the desperation to sell.
Source: US FRED
Simultaneously, with mortgage rates set to tighten even further, we can expect more demand destruction in the housing market leading to a lengthy period of slowing residential sales.
Low supply, lower demand
In the US, there are approximately half-a-million houses for sale at any given time. This stock tends to govern the price dynamics of the much larger total number of over 80 million residences throughout the country.
Source: US FRED
We can see that monthly supply is increasing, as retirees, homeowners and even investors unwind their positions.
The process of price destruction is accelerated when banks make their appraisals for mortgage loans and incorporate this stressed selling into lending decisions.
Soon the individual plight of a struggling family or distressed retiree can be transmitted into weaker appraisals across the board, and accordingly, lower funding for the purchase of houses.
One of the central arguments against the idea of prices falling is the notion that housing supplies are still relatively low.
However, Gammon argues, that as mortgage rates stay elevated and affordability continues to decline,
Low supply doesn’t matter if demand is even lower.
In such a situation, home prices will continue to plummet.
Joseph Wang, a former senior trader at the Fed’s open market desk, believes that the Fed may continue to keep rates high for longer than many anticipate.
His thesis is based on the tools that the Fed has developed including swap lines, the repo facility and debt buy-backs to manage treasury market turmoil, corporate bond market volatility and banking crises, respectively.
In short, Wang expects that the Fed will be able to continue keeping rates high without ‘breaking’ anything, thanks to intervening whenever pressure builds somewhere in the system.
Of course, these are hardly permanent solutions, and cleverly, he calls these tools,
…monetary duct tape.
As per Wang’s argument, mortgage rates may shift higher while following the Fed funds rate, since inflation does not seem to be going anywhere, anytime soon.
Equally importantly, the Fed and other central banks can only manage the short end of the interest-rate curve and exert a very limited influence on products like mortgage rates.
Expectations
With home prices accelerating on the downside, Professor of Finance at Wharton, Jeremy Siegel expects,
…(a) fall (of) 10% to 15%…I think we’re gonna have the second-biggest housing price decline since the post-WWII period over the next twelve months.
Keller Williams Chief Economist Ruben Gonzalez warns,
The Federal Reserve will continue to ratchet up the federal funds rate to slow inflation, and if the Reserve’s approach becomes more aggressive, we will see mortgage rates increase even further.
Dark predictions indeed.
But again, these are nominal projections.
As long as inflation resists the Fed’s efforts, home values will see severe real cuts in the coming months and years.
Even a nominal price decline of 20%-30% over the next few years, when you adjust for inflation, could easily be a price decline in real terms of 50% plus.
With yield curve inversion signalling a severe recession in the coming months, we can expect unemployment rates to spike as well, forcing a loss in purchasing power and further dragging down home demand and prices.
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Real estate is a vibrant, dynamic and competitive industry. From the thrill of a sale to the pursuit of new leads, it keeps you on your toes. That said, it can also be incredibly isolating, and it can be hard to stay motivated. As a way to deal with this, many agents and brokers seek out professional mentorship as a means to gain insight and level up their performance. Across the country, the best real estate coaches serve as valuable mentors who can help agents and brokers achieve the success they deserve.
“It’s really hard for independent business owners to get unbiased advice from themselves,” says Kyle Scott, President of SERHANT. Ventures. “So they need unbiased experts to work with that will help them grow their business — someone who has been there, who has done it, and who is able to see their business from both the 35,000-foot view and down in the weeds.”
A quick internet search will prove that real estate coaching programs are plentiful. Whether you’re looking to expand your team or client network or figure out how to delegate work so you can focus on the tasks you do best, a real estate coaching program could be a valuable launchpad. But when it comes to choosing the right one for your unique needs, there’s a lot to consider. Here, we highlight some of the best real estate coaches in the industry and their programs.
An unbiased view is worth millions. Often, we turn to our closest friends and family for guidance. Unfortunately, they’re usually not familiar with the ins and outs of the real estate industry and can’t provide you with the relevant feedback you need. As a result, many independent contractors rely on themselves, which generally doesn’t work either.
You can’t advise yourself, you’re too close to it. A coach works best for someone who is actually looking to grow their business, someone who is looking to put in the time and the energy to make a difference in achieving more income this year.
Hire a coach if you want to start taking your business to the next level for any reason — you want to make more money, have more freedom with your time, or stop riding the ins and outs of the commission cycle.President of SERHANT. Ventures
1. Sell It Like Serhant
Key Facts
Grown throughout the pandemic, the Sell It Like Serhant program has been carefully adapted to the current market. It follows a weekly and bi-weekly platform featuring one-on-one virtual coaching from Serhant’s proprietary video platform. After a half-hour or hour-long group meeting every week or every other week, participants follow actionable steps to help them grow their business. Thus far, more than 22,000 enrollees in 128 countries have been through the Sell It Like Serhant program.
What We Love
Serhant offers daily office hours so participants can pop into virtual sessions to ask questions or get expert advice between their regularly scheduled sessions. A community platform also allows participants to pass referrals to each other. Thus far, it seems to have worked: To date, participating agents have closed over $250 million of referral deals.
Pricing
There are different membership tiers, depending on the level of guidance you need. The introductory Real Estate Core Course starts at $497. Prices are higher for a more specific course or one with 1:1 coaching.
Who’s it Best For?
If you’re looking to build a memorable personal brand, SERHANT. is the way to go. “The number one differentiator about our program is we understand that as a real estate agent, you have one job: to generate leads,” says SERHANT. Ventures President Kyle Scott. “Our number one focus is helping you build a clear, compelling, memorable personal brand and put your lead generation on autopilot. So that way, you can do what you do best, which is build relationships and close deals.”
Visit Sell It Like Serhant
2. Tom Ferry International
Key Facts
For good reason, Ferry International refers to itself as the real estate industry’s leading coaching and training company. Focused on Ferry’s “8 Levels of Performance,” the programs are a staple of real estate coaching. Their new group coaching sessions cover various aspects of real estate sales.
Prospecting Bootcamp is a 14-hour program comprised of seven two-hour group coaching sessions, and includes a peer-to-peer collaboration space. It involves independent work pulled from training videos and downloadable resources.
Recruitment Roadmap consists of hour-long sessions each week for ten weeks. Completed over Zoom and through the Tom Ferry video platform, each group coaching program offers a high level of specialization.
Finally, their Fast Track program offers 12 interactive group coaching sessions designed to help new agents build the necessary skills to succeed — like mastering listing presentations and handling objections.
What we love
If you’re looking for the gold standard of real estate coaching, Tom Ferry has the goods to back up the bravado. Because of their many years in the biz, Tom Ferry has a huge base of coaches, which means there are plenty of options to find the program best suited for your specific needs.
Pricing
Tom Ferry’s Prospecting Bootcamp and Fast Track coaching programs cost $999 but can be broken down into three monthly payments. The Recruitment Roadmap group coaching costs $1,499 but can be split into three monthly payments of $500. Consider their free coaching consultation if you want to dip your toes in the water. Check out their customer reviews, where several coaching program alums rave about the program.
Who’s it Best For?
If you thrive in a group setting that allows you to feed off the energy of others, Tom Ferry might be right for you. Their group coaching programs are new and more affordable alternatives to often costly 1:1 coaching fees.
Visit Tom Ferry
3. Tim and Julie Harris
Key Facts
The dynamic duo of real estate coaching, Tim and Julie Harris are a major name in the industry. Under their business, Harris Real Estate Coaching, their programs are divided into three tiers: Premier, Premier Plus, and VIP, all of which rely on a user-friendly online platform.
Pricing
Premier platform costs $197 per month, but a 30-day free trial is available. Premier Plus costs $599 per month, while VIP costs $999 per month. Of course, their wildly successful podcast is a great free resource to tap into, as well as Tim and Julie’s many written contributions to HousingWire.
Who’s it Best For?
If you’re constantly on the go, the ability to access the course from any device is a major asset.
4. Candy Miles-Crocker
Key Facts
Newbies are welcome at Candy Miles Crocker’s program. Known as the “Real Life Realtor,” she’s the brain behind Real Life Real Estate Training. With a variety of courses in her offerings, including a plethora of self-paced online courses, Miles-Crocker gives new agents a leg-up on the rest.
What we love
Miles-Crocker is still an active agent, working with clients to close deals. Her 20+ years of experience practicing in Washington, D.C., Virginia and Maryland have helped her build “systems, strategies and scripts” that she shares with her coaching clients.
Pricing
The CORE Essentials Blueprint program retails for $1,597. Smaller, more specific courses, such as The Buyer Presentation, are priced at $347. While all pricing isn’t listed on her website, Miles-Crocker also offers a free course that includes her 6-point system for growth.
Who’s it Best For?
Miles-Crocker’s courses could be beneficial if you are new to agent life or looking to get your business reorganized. She even has one specifically for your first 30 days as a real estate agent.
5. Ashley Harwood
Key Facts
Boston-based Ashley Harwood inspires introverts with her convincing, heartfelt and high-touch approach to practicing real estate. Her very human, very relatable Move Over Extroverts coaching approach is the perfect antidote for cheerleader-style coaches that urge you to door-knock, chase down divorce leads or become a social media superstar.
What we love
Harwood is a licensed agent coaching agents week-in and week-out at no less than three Keller-Williams offices in the great Boston metro. We love her humanity, inspiring videos, and her latest enterpise — The Quiet Success Club. Inspired by Susan Cain’s New York Times bestseller Quiet, about the power of introverts, Harwood brings together a community of like-minded real estate agents wanting a more client-centric approach to succeeding as an agent.
Pricing
Join The Quiet Success Club for $45 per month (paid monthly) or get two months free when you pay for an annual subscription (for $450). The club is currently offering founding member pricing for $25 per month or $250, but it’s a limited-time offer available only under April 30, 2024. Or get a lifetime membership to Harwood’s suite of courses, called IntrovertU, for a one-time cost of $997.
Who’s it Best For?
Introverts, of course! While you may not count yourself as one, if you read Susan Cain’s book, you may unearth your more introverted traits — like recharging your battery by being alone. Ok, even if you don’t bask in solitude, Harwood promises a calming community where agents can be themselves, be seen, and where they don’t have to be the loudest voice in her mastermind group, purposefully (and quietly) designed to teach successful lead generation and other strategies.
6. Levi Lascsak
If you’re looking to improve your social media game, Levi Lascsak is the YouTube master. The author of Passive Prospecting specializes in helping real estate professionals embrace the video platform, and he does so in jam-packed, 2-day virtual events. Discover how he earned over $4 million in gross commission income as a new agent.
What we love
Lascsak’s social media marketing skills are top-of-the-line. While he may not be part of the traditional world of real estate coaching, Lascak’s ability to relate to younger audiences is an asset that Millennial and Gen Z agents might appreciate.
Pricing
The live, 2-day events are available at a discount for $47. But as you can expect, he’s got endless information available for free on YouTube.
Who’s it best for?
If you’re a digital native looking to pack a bunch of education into a short period, a Lascsak course is particularly beneficial.
7. Jess Lenouvel
Key Facts
Promising to help agents scale from six to seven figures, The Listings Lab founder Jess Lenouvel is the author of More Money, Less Hustle. A strong example of a coach with a significant understanding of social media, Lenouvel hosts vibrant live events that hype up the audience and prepare them to take their career to the next level.
What we Love
Lenouvel emphasizes the significant power of mindset to achieve one’s goals. She understands how quickly the market shifts and emphasizes staying on top of trends to succeed.
Lenouvel’s live events focus on messaging. For those looking to solidify their brand and develop a clear, concise message, her events might be what you need.
8. Buffini & Company
Key Facts
Another giant of the real estate coaching industry, Buffini & Company is one of the largest coaching and training companies in the United States. They have two major coaching programs: The Leadership Coaching program includes three monthly coaching calls, free admission to a 2-day conference, and curriculums and training led by Brian Buffini. There are also bi-monthly coaching sessions and a monthly web series with a live Q&A.
Buffini & Company also performs a REALstrengths profile — an in-depth personality assessment. In the One2One Coaching program, there are two coaching calls per month, a monthly marketing kit, the REALStrengths profile, and as with the SERHANT. program, Buffini features the Buffini Referral Network, allowing participants to send and receive referrals with other agents.
What We Love
Buffini coaches aren’t independent contractors. Instead, they’re full-time employees who go through intense training. Thus far, they’ve conducted 1.7 million coaching calls and more than one million hours of coaching.
Pricing
The Leadership Coaching program costs $1,499 a month. Private coaching, referred to as One2One Coaching, costs $549 per month. Two tiers of Referral Maker courses are available from $45 to $149 each per month.
Who’s it Best For?
Team spirit is the name of the game for Buffini’s Leadership Coaching program. If you’re a team leader looking to improve your coaching skills and assist your team in leveling up, the Leadership Coaching program might be right for you. If you want a more personalized path as a solo agent, the One2One Coaching program may be a better fit.
9. Vanda Martin
Key Facts
A popular name in the real estate coaching industry, Vanda Martin’s VIP Coaching Program follows three components: coaching, content, and community. Martin doesn’t shy away from mistakes – instead, she emphasizes avoiding indecision that puts you behind the pack.
What we love
Positive vibes are plentiful in Martin’s world, and her energy is tangible. Just check out her Instagram videos.
Pricing
Martin’s pricing isn’t listed.
Who’s it best for?
If you’re looking for a female leader who emphasizes loving your job and building habits that will take you to a greater level of success, Martin’s ability to convey those feelings is clear. Just check out the endless testimonials on her website.
9. Tat Londono
Key Facts
Tatiana Londono is the founder and CEO of Londono Realty Group Inc. The author of Real Estate Unfiltered, she offers a variety of programming that ranges from free templates to intensive coaching sessions. The Millionaire Realtor Membership provides weekly input from Londono, while the intensive Millionaire Real Estate Agent Coaching Program focuses on building 12-month objectives using a custom success action plan. It uses live programming and workshops with Londono herself, as well as an exclusive online community and referral network for members.
What we love
Londono’s keen sense of social media and her posts are a masterclass in how to boost your engagement on platforms like TikTok and Instagram. Don’t miss her takes on Taylor Swift’s real estate portfolio.
Londono’s programs specifically target agents who are looking to scale their business. If you’re struggling with lead generation or want to increase the number of views you’re racking up on social media, Londono is a valuable source within the industry.
10. Steve Shull
Key Facts
Steve Shull’s Performance Coaching focuses on using consistent execution to achieve your goals. With options ranging from 1:1 private coaching to small group coaching for 10 to 20 agents, the groups have 30-minute Zoom calls three times a day, but the number of sessions you choose to attend is up to you. Several self-directed courses are also available on the website, focusing on topics ranging from mindset to time blocking.
What we love
If you’re not positive you want to make the investment, Performance Coaching allows a 14-day free trial of daily accountability calls.
Pricing
Small group coaching costs $6,000 a year, and while 1:1 coaching prices aren’t listed online, you should prepare for a hefty price tag.
Who’s it Best For?
If you have a specific area you’re looking to improve upon, Performance Coaching offers coaches with unique areas of expertise, ranging from CRMs to business strategy. Tailoring your program to your greatest areas of weakness can help you become a more well-rounded agent.
11. Aaron Novello
Key Facts
Aaron Novello of Elite Real Estate Coaching has several programs tailor-made for agents looking to hone their craft. A Masterclass in Systems works to teach agents how to scale their real estate business, organize their team, and use programming like Follow Up Boss to manage their business.
The Role Play Mastermind is for agents looking to prepare themselves for tough discussions by working with a role-play partner for 15 to 30 minutes, five days a week. The group coaching option includes a variety of scripts Novello used to close on homes, as well as mindset guides, skill sheets, and expert guidance from experts in the field.
What we love
Novello’s exclusive accountability group allows active members and former coaching clients to share everything from guidance to motivation. If you’re looking to save money, Novello also has a free podcast available on YouTube.
If you struggle with having difficult conversations and are looking for solid templates to guide you, Novello’s Role Play Mastermind is a solid investment. The group coaching option emphasizes taking the educational portion and putting it into practice in the real world rather than just watching videos.
12. Krista Mashore Coaching
Key Facts
Filled with energy and known for popping up in the press, Krista Mashore is the mind behind Unstoppable Agent, her 3-day mastery class. It includes over 15 hours of coaching, group workshops, breakout sessions, and skill-building workshops to provide you with the skills to implement digital marketing successfully into your real estate business.
What we love
A positive attitude counts for a lot, and Mashore’s personality is a key component of the success of her course.
Pricing
Mashore’s accessibility is another one of her program’s best assets. Her 3-day class is currently priced at $47, but pricing occasionally varies.
Who’s it best for?
If you crave energy and enthusiasm, Krista Mashore has the goods. She’s also an expert on working in today’s low-inventory market, which is ideal for someone struggling with the current housing shortage. But she’s also got a good sense of humor, which shines through in her social media presence.
The full picture: The best real estate coaches for 2024
Hiring a top real estate coach goes far beyond just expanding your skills. While growing and educating yourself as you navigate your career is essential, hiring a coach is all about seeking to achieve more. Whether you’re looking to boost lead generation, build a solid personal brand, or make more commission income, having the input of a seasoned expert is a priceless step in the right direction. As you can see through the endless reviews and testimonials on coaches’ websites, agents who want to scale their business and take their profits to a higher level often seek the outside guidance of a coach. While the cost of hiring someone may be significant, the return on investment is equally as monumental.
Real estate coaching programs vary in price significantly. Most cost over $500 per month, with others charging several thousand dollars per month. “Oftentimes, it is the case that you get what you pay for,” said Kyle Scott, President of SERHANT. Ventures.
However, prices can also vary depending on the specific niche of real estate coaching you’re focusing on. The more specificity you’re seeking, the higher the financial investment. Of course, self-led courses are likely to cost much less.
Does your career feel stalled right now? Are you ready to take your career to the next level, but you’re not sure where to start? In a down market, you can channel your time and energy into actively improving your business skills so that you’ll be sufficiently prepared for when the market changes.
“When things pick up again, you’re ready to capture the climbing market,” says Scott. “If that’s the case, then the best time to embrace coaching is now. At the same time, a thriving market presents agents with new challenges, ranging from having to turn away business or being unable to service your existing business in a way you’re proud of,” Scott noted. “In that type of market, a real estate coach can help you determine what kind of junior agent or assistant would serve you best. How do I figure out how to manage my business in a way that I can keep up with the volume?”
Part 1: Current State of the Housing Market; Overview for mid-March 2024
Today, in the Calculated Risk Real Estate Newsletter: Part 1: Current State of the Housing Market; Overview for mid-March 2024
A brief excerpt: This 2-part overview for mid-March provides a snapshot of the current housing market.
This 2-part overview for mid-March provides a snapshot of the current housing market.
I always like to start with inventory, since inventory usually tells the tale!
...
Here is a graph of new listing from Realtor.com’s February 2024 Monthly Housing Market Trends Report showing new listings were up 11.3% year-over-year in February. This is still well below pre-pandemic levels. From Realtor.com:
However, providing a boost to overall inventory, sellers turned out in higher numbers this February as newly listed homes were 11.3% above last year’s levels. This marked the fourth month of increasing listing activity after a 17-month streak of decline.
Note the seasonality for new listings. December and January are seasonally the weakest months of the year for new listings, followed by February and November. New listings will be up year-over-year in 2024, but we will have to wait for the March and April data to see how close new listings are to normal levels.
There are always people that need to sell due to the so-called 3 D’s: Death, Divorce, and Disease. Also, in certain times, some homeowners will need to sell due to unemployment or excessive debt (neither is much of an issue right now).
And there are homeowners who want to sell for a number of reasons: upsizing (more babies), downsizing, moving for a new job, or moving to a nicer home or location (move-up buyers). It is some of the “want to sell” group that has been locked in with the golden handcuffs over the last couple of years, since it is financially difficult to move when your current mortgage rate is around 3%, and your new mortgage rate will be in the 6 1/2% to 7% range.
But time is a factor for this “want to sell” group, and eventually some of them will take the plunge. That is probably why we are seeing more new listings now.
Pharma industry reputation remains steady at a ‘new normal’ after Covid, Harris Poll finds
The pharma industry is hanging on to reputation gains notched during the Covid-19 pandemic. Positive perception of the pharma industry is steady at 45%…
The pharma industry is hanging on to reputation gains notched during the Covid-19 pandemic. Positive perception of the pharma industry is steady at 45% of US respondents in 2023, according to the latest Harris Poll data. That’s exactly the same as the previous year.
Pharma’s highest point was in February 2021 — as Covid vaccines began to roll out — with a 62% positive US perception, and helping the industry land at an average 55% positive sentiment at the end of the year in Harris’ 2021 annual assessment of industries. The pharma industry’s reputation hit its most recent low at 32% in 2019, but it had hovered around 30% for more than a decade prior.
Rob Jekielek
“Pharma has sustained a lot of the gains, now basically one and half times higher than pre-Covid,” said Harris Poll managing director Rob Jekielek. “There is a question mark around how sustained it will be, but right now it feels like a new normal.”
The Harris survey spans 11 global markets and covers 13 industries. Pharma perception is even better abroad, with an average 58% of respondents notching favorable sentiments in 2023, just a slight slip from 60% in each of the two previous years.
Pharma’s solid global reputation puts it in the middle of the pack among international industries, ranking higher than government at 37% positive, insurance at 48%, financial services at 51% and health insurance at 52%. Pharma ranks just behind automotive (62%), manufacturing (63%) and consumer products (63%), although it lags behind leading industries like tech at 75% positive in the first spot, followed by grocery at 67%.
The bright spotlight on the pharma industry during Covid vaccine and drug development boosted its reputation, but Jekielek said there’s maybe an argument to be made that pharma is continuing to develop innovative drugs outside that spotlight.
“When you look at pharma reputation during Covid, you have clear sense of a very dynamic industry working very quickly and getting therapies and products to market. If you’re looking at things happening now, you could argue that pharma still probably doesn’t get enough credit for its advances, for example, in oncology treatments,” he said.
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